I enjoyed reading your view of the future for Pangolin, I believe in sharpening the axe and this sounds great to me. The opportunity to learn and contribute, and have a potential future in the industry is also appealing.
Here’s the current leaderboard with Pangolin at the time of writing sitting in 28
It’s without a doubt my priority to break into the top 20 and then the top 10 and eventually the top 5. That is a huge priority of mine.
I’m just wondering why you think we don’t want to be inclusive of the community? It’s one of my main goals. I’ve worked with a lot of amazing people on a lot of different projects within the ecosystem and I’d love to work with as many as possible. I’ve actually called out Yield Yak for having the best branding on Twitter almost two weeks ago
Whoever did that illustration nailed it. It’s awesome!
You then go on to mention sidechains. I think in the interest of a healthy debate, it’s important you educate yourself on some of the foundational elements of blockchain. Avalanche and Pangolin are not sidechains.
The Treasury is planned on being used. However we can’t just be spending money on everything. Just spending without any form of due diligence is irresponsible and unsustainable. If you have that approach, I’d be personally worried about your project and it’s long term future.
When you say this is not a personal attack, I think the tone of your post suggests otherwise. I personally love healthy debate, but it can be challenging when people aren’t constructive in their criticism.
Again, I’m on Telegram, Discord, this forum and Twitter. If you want to reach out to me directly, that’s cool. We can setup a call and we can talk through all your concerns. I’m serious when I say this is about the community. But I’d encourage you to first do some research before we talk so that you at least have the basics correct.
Many thanks for your efforts hariseldon2 All your suggestions are must have for Pangolin. But in order to select which ones are of first priority, there should be maybe a simply telegram voting. I am also for rewarding team members or community members for their contribution. Every contribution should be rewarded. There should be no objection to this. So, I support your suggestions and also very grateful to our community for critical comments. Let`s buidl the future of DEXs.
It is basically positive when people take the initiative and want to do something good for the community, for the project.
I would like to list some points below to structure the whole need for action.
The organization under consideration is the decentralized exchange (DEX) ‘Pangolin’
Understand the organization and its context
a) What is the context of the organization?
Answer: Purpose of the organization, vision, strategy, etc. The organization must understand the topics relevant to its purpose. What does that mean in concrete terms: Pangolin is a decentralized exchange in which a wide variety of coins can be traded / exchanged for certain fees. Furthermore, money can be deposited in pools at Pangolin in order to get a return.
Question to the community:
What is the Pangolin Decentralized Exchange for you, what are the relevant topics for you?
Understand the expectations of interested parties
a) Who are the interested parties?
b) What are their expectations?
Answer a): Anyone who wants to use pangolin to trade or provide money.
Answer b): The groups who want to exchange want to carry out their exchange at low fees. The people who make money available want as high a return as possible. Furthermore, the process should, among other things, be quick and easy to carry out.
Question to the community:
Who are you an investor, a user? What are your expectations of the decentralized exchange?
Pangolin and its processes
a) Which processes are taking place?
Answer: Technical process, i.e. programming. Communication content such as email etc.
Question to the community:
What do you think are the processes in the organization. Which are important from your point of view?
Leadership of the organization
a) Who is the lead?
Answer: Pangolin is managed decentrally, i.e. the people, groups who own the Pangolin Coin PNG. Everyone who owns a PNG Coin is part of the comunity. With the amount of PNG per person, the group decides on the weighting of the vote.
Question to the community:
what do you think the leadership should be like in the organization?
Roles, responsibilities and authorities in the organization
a) What roles and responsibilities are there in the organization?
Answer: The organization, i.e. the pangolin community, determines the necessary roles. This also applies to responsibility and authority. One role is the PNG community. Another could be the social media coordinator or the person responsible for public relations etc.
Question to the community:
What roles does the organization need? What responsibilities and authorities should the people in each role be given?
Objectives of the organization
a) What are the goals of the organization?
Answer: Be sustainable, i.e. be profitable, be accessible to everyone, be the best decentralized exchange (DEX).
Question to the community:
what goals should the organization have in the short term, long term?
a) What resources does the organization need, what support does it need?
Answer: it needs investors, i.e. capital providers. Furthermore users of the decentralized exchange. The organization also needs partnerships with various developers, projects that provide interfaces to other organizations.
Question to the Community:
Which partnerships would you suggest?
Evaluation of performance
a) How efficiently does the organization work?
Answer. Key figures must be defined, which is already given with the Pangolin Analytics tool. But it also needs key figures for the roles and responsibilities in the organization. How effectively did the people, groups work, how much benefit did the people, groups bring to the organization, etc.
Question to the community:
Which key figures are you interested in, which are important to you?
a) what needs to be done for the organization to achieve its goals?
b) How do the organizations deal with problems and undesirable developments?
Answer a): The roles and responsibilities in the organization are responsible for this, see also point 6.
Answer b) be resolved immediately in the interests of the organization and ensure that they do not arise again
There should be no overregulation and there should not be too much formalism. Rules are necessary according to the principle ‘as much as necessary as little as possible’.
Who are we, what is the goal, how do we reach the goal.
Today Pangolin is a decentralized exchange, but what it will be in 2 or 5 or 10 years, what can develop from the decentralized exchange (DEX), what partnerships there will be, we do not know now. But it is in the hands of the organizatio.
Hey @hariseldon2 thanks for all your efforts… I think SnowYak’s initial post was a bit harsh, but that’s probably bourne out of a lot of frustration from doing a lot of grassroots efforts with Ava Labs & other dev teams & feeling like he’s not being heard. he has a lot of defi experience that shouldn’t be dismissed, or to be honest, immaturely dismissed by you based on semantics (c’mon). seriously man, you aren’t helping your case at all.
high level his point is that Pangolin is the driver of the AVAX defi ecosystem & should be investing in other projects. Maybe that’s a directive at Ava Labs (and not your mandate). but on an absolute & relative basis, AVAX TVL is stagnant (see my twitter post about this that I wrote a couple of days ago on @rogerclu) & this definitely is a big issue. i know the work that YY is doing & they are being very inclusive with other teams & trying to grow the whole pie, because in the end, if we are able to grow the entire AVAX pie, PNG & other projects will flourish. If TVL comes based on new projects, be it competing DEXes or other projects, PNG as incumbent with the largest liquidity will absolutely crush it. if the philosophy is short-term focused or anti-competitive, AVAX defi will die. network effects are key
Oh, I get it!
This situation is a different animal. I would suggest Project Manger or something along those lines. Really anything other than “owner” because unlike a software developer, you wouldn’t be the owner I think.
I look forward to your leadership with Pangolin. Its exciting Pangolin has attracted a person of your caliber.
I’m really glad @hariseldon2 has put his hand up to start this because we need some people dedicated to driving Pangolin’s success. I’ve already offered to join that effort and help where I can on the legal issues, contracts, registrations, regulatory issues etc.
However I also want to address some of the feedback above because I’m concerned about the consequences of drifting along without installing a core team or waiting for “the community” to drive this:
@SnowYak I’ve read through your response and understand the concern. You want to keep the AMM community focused, and that’s fine. You want to support the AVAX ecosystem? I agree 100%.
However the idea that this can be run by “the community” of devs or users is unworkable. Even the most decentralised AMMs need a core team and team leader who are thinking beyond short-term issues like PNG price fluctuations (which takes up more than half of the posts on this forum).
For example, SushiSwap isn’t anon anymore and is now growing into one of the biggest AMMs by trade volume. SushiSwap is measuring various metrics beyond TVL. They are doing a cost-benefit analysis for every decision, exactly as @hariseldon2 is proposing to do.
SushiSwap’s succes is not an accident. It’s not because it relied only on community support. It’s because a core team built a semi-corporate structure behind SushiSwap and is leveraging that to drive growth. That core team wakes up every morning and lives, eats and breathes SushiSwap. They get paid to do that and are accountable for the platform’s success. The community benefits with better ROI, better UX and plenty of fun along the way.
Take a look at Yearn - they claim to be almost fully decentralised but once you look past Andre’s commentary and go behind the scenes, you’ll find a core team who are focused on 2 things - growth and innovation. They manage the multi-sig and treasury and use those funds and other generated fees to drive development, marketing and the other support tasks involved in running an AMM. It’s not a hobby. It’s a full-time job. They run it more like a business, not a community club. Yearn already has a fully developed structure with sub-teams working on specific tasks. Those teams have objectives and targets and deadlines and are paid to produce quality work.
Compare that with the hundreds of “community driven” projects that you don’t hear about and which drift along without much impact. I love those projects too but they need the success of cornerstone platforms to do the heavy lifting. Pangolin is currently a cornerstone platform for AVAX.
It’s not fair to rely on “the community” to make Pangolin a success. The “community” can’t do the daily work necessary to drive Pangolin or any other AMM. We can’t wait for people to find us. In order to make Pangolin a success we need a core group of people who wake up every morning and say: “How can I make Pangolin better today?” It’s not enough to have a core group of community devs - we need a broad range of skill-sets as @hariseldon2 points out.
I don’t agree with this and nor does any other successful AMM. They are all investing, collaborating and leveraging their capital. Pangolin should aim for that level of influence in the Avalanche ecosystem.
Even if I accepted the need for trading volume as the main objective, I would want to see the proposal for building liquidity which is a key requirement for every exchange and AMM. That requires AVAX and PNG to be more liquid and a plan to build that liquidity before we can attract institutional traders and trading volume. Institutions don’t care about ETH’s high fees because their biggest problem is slippage, not gas fees. Pangolin needs stablecoin pools worth hundreds of millions and a strategy to develop a capital-efficient AMM. That strategy requires collaboration and negotiation with institutional investors, other AMMs and CEXs. It needs someone authorised to represent the platform and fight for the right outcome.
Avalanche is at a key moment in crypto history - with ETH taking forever to transition to PoS (which already seems like a strategic mistake) and other projects building up momentum, this is Pangolin’s opportunity to move assetively into the space. We have the technology, funds and people to make this a reality.
There is only one thing missing - someone to lead a Pangolin team to implement a plan and make it happen.
I agree but we should not rely on Ava Labs and in fact, the faster we can decouple from Ava Labs, the better for them and Pangolin. Pangolin needs its own independent organisation to do things such as dev support, project coordination etc. That takes a lot of resources which Pangolin can afford to do itself. Taking this approach frees up @dasconnor and Ava Labs to focus on their objectives. We know they’re super busy judging by their hiring spree!
The community has an important role to play in this. Part of that means delegating authority to those individuals we trust to add value and represent Pangolin.
I’ve seen @hariseldon2 at work for a few weeks now and he is a passionate advocate for Pangolin and the AVAX ecosystem. He will be able to win the trust of all the key people needed to make Pangolin a success.
On that basis, I’ll be voting to support his proposal.
thanks waynewest! TBH i really didn’t like the dismissiveness of his reply (great, yeah, thanks for complementing them on YY’s branding… dick). it really makes me question his maturity on handling such a big job. even if the YY response was harsh, you should really be listening to every voice, especially from someone who has so much defi experience across chains & has helped the avax defi ecosystem so much.
I understand the frustration around Pangolin. I’ve felt it too. I honestly think criticism is incredibly important. See this as a practice I think is quite important Leveling mechanism - Wikipedia
However I do think semantics are important in this space. It’s a technical space and not understanding these elements leads to confusion and mistakes. I don’t believe my post was immature, but if it was taken that way, then I apologize. I’m often going to be wrong and I need the community to keep me in check! My intention is not to alienate anyone.
I’m actually thinking of having a builders session with all the DeFi projects as a result of SnowYaks post, so without that criticism I probably wouldn’t have known this was an important task to perform. So I’m grateful that he/she was brave enough to post what they did.
I have a Telegram group for Avalanche builders here Telegram: Join Group Chat so if anyone wants to join and wants to add to this discussion I’m very keen to talk to builders and hear what we can do better.
okay, i can’t help but be defensive of Yak, but yeah let’s move forward - it would be great if we could just start the conversation on the best path forward. it’s clear that everyone is very passionate & wants the AVAX defi ecosystem to succeed which is leading to such strong voices. so passion is good & so let’s figure this shit out together!
It’s the communities job to keep me in check. I can’t know everything so the more people talk to me and voice their concerns the more I can understand what we need to do. In that regard SnowYak nailed it!
I think you misunderstood my post looking at your comments, I have not stated a Lead was not needed and my points are about the direction and plan of Pangolin. Here you state exactly what I stated, forget about short term, think long term and how to grow not on how to make short term revenue.
With 200M TVL and looking at similar position dexes on other chains, this can’t be a priority and can’t be on the initial plan. First grow, then optimize. You don’t optimize before you grow because you will cut your growth
And we are loosing vs the main competitors.
Implement a plan that focus on growth, growth, growth and make it happen, not a plan focused on financial statements, positive ROI investments and make more revenue short term.
I just want to see a plan to grow the ecosystem around pangolin, how pangolin will grow TVL, how they will increase trading volume, how they will onboard native projects, how they will dive into the native ecosystem and push it to the next level.
It would probably be better to change that because it may be confusing to non-native English speakers or to write a parenthesis explaining what PO means because some users could think that you become the owner of the Pangolin DEX
I know we are on the same page on how Pangolin should orient itself towards long term growth. If I understand your thread, you want to promote organic, community lead growth rather than focus on treating Pangolin like a business.
I actually think we can do both things and we need to do both.
When I read @hariseldon2 post, it’s clear that he has identified the key drivers - community development and support, smarter use of the existing tokenomics, R&D, marketing and tooling. The use of Pangolin Treasury funds will be done methodically, with proper cost-benefit analysis and business cases.
It’s strange but I don’t see the OP focusing on “financial statements, positive ROI investments and revenue”. It’s only relevant to one part of the proposal dealing with use of Treasury funds. If we don’t have that, we’ll end up wasting money on silly things that add no value. If you want an example of what that looks like, you can review Dash proposals going back to 2017 - creating DASH themed TV shows, buying POS machines, advertising at Air Shows. It was pretty ugly and was money badly spent.
If we look at successful platforms, they only spend treasury funds after reviewing business cases and scrutinising assumptions. It’s good business practice and part of good governance.
And I’m glad to hear that the Treasury is going to be invested sensibly to earn interest rather than just sitting there. We can see what Yearn and other projects do with their pools - they spend every minute looking for yield and ROI anywhere they can. Guess what? Investors love that.
However these topics are not the primary focus for today. Today, we need to install a team and give them a budget and authority needed to make Pangolin the success I know it can be.