Core team salaries and bounties

salary is more than fair imho. can we please get this on chain now and get it going

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First of all, please do not get me wrong. I do not know the team here at all, so nothing against anyone here. I am just sharing my view just comparing these announced positions and market realities.

I do know very well PM salaries in Europe market and it is not comparable with this amount. You can get ten thousands applications if you post 140K USD Salary for a PM position.

couple questions:

  • How community will assess the performance of this team?
  • Who will define the KPI? How this will be monitored?

As mentioned above, team has some brillant ideas , but nothing was shared with the community. So for what these salaries will be paid?

From my point of view, Scope based approach would be fairly well in such case. Team can announce their plan, define their total costs for this package and define their milestones( can be multiple milestones linked certain amount of costs) and at the end if team can deliver as promised, agreed amount amount can be paid as USD. Otherwise i do not see a way to assess the performance of this team.

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Why legally can’t you mention things? It’s a community driven project. Everything should be clear and transparent. Public ideas, public code, public issues, open licenses and so on. If we start with hidden things we won’t go far.

Yes, you are completely right, but I think it’s not the right place for this discussion. I thought about something, I’ll share it later in Discord in proposal poll. I have now often received the feedback and will offer a solution accordingly. Please do not use this topic for this discussion.

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With all due resect. For $140,000 you could hire the smartest people in world. Google hires only the smartest of the smartest and they get paid typically $148,000. You cannot compare yourself to google. This a small starting community driven project however it looks like you decide what your salary is.
In my opinion, you should have a base pay and if certain goals get accomplished you earn bonuses. This way if you guys do a great job you could potentially earn millions and we the community don’t mind because we also profit because the with your accomplished tasks and goals the project grows and so we also earn. This would be fair.

Hey check out our proposals for more details about our backgrounds and qualifications

You’re right that you would get a lot of applicants for the salaries posted. What these other applicants won’t have is months of experience working in Avalanche DeFi, and specifically working with the Pangolin product. There are only a handful of people with these unique qualifications, and they are on the proposed team listed above.

As for assessing performance, it is the a community driven project and our performance will be assessed by the community. We’ll give regular reports of road map updates, budget updates, etc, and if the community is ever unhappy with the direction the team is going then they can use the governance process to vote the current team out and a new team in.

This is an interesting point about salaries and qualifications. Take a look at my reply here

There are many smart engineers, PMs, etc in the world. However there are only a handful of these people with the type of experience working in Avalanche DeFi, and with the Pangolin product and codebase that the current proposed team has. The team proposed has tremendous understanding of the product, processes, and codebase already, which is very valuable in getting the road map built correctly and efficiently.

On-boarding a team from the open market that is unfamiliar with DeFi, Avalanche, Pangolin, would introduce more delay in getting the road map built out since they would need time to be on-boarded and understand the systems, whereas we are already intimately familiar.

It also introduces risk that if they will not have the correct vision for Pangolin if they do not fully understand the landscape of Avalanche DeFi, or the intricacies of Pangolin’s processes, at the same level as we do.

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Pangolin talks with a lot of projects and partners who ask for NDA (non disclosure agreement) in regards to their future plans. It is a common practice in software to ask for NDA so that you do not lose your advantage in the market place. For example, Uniswap V3 was very secret because they did not want competitors copying.

We would like to be as transparent as possible about our own plans at Pangolin, although when it involves the plans of other projects we need to also respect their privacy and legal structures.

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You have a team of people here who have contributed freely the past few months, and are now stepping up to do more. It’s perfectly reasonable to debate this issue of compensation just like the roadmap was open to discussion since the community needs to drive decisions. I’d like to point out some differences that might be going unconsidered comparing traditional salaries from companies like Google or others:

  1. Those salaries do not include the additional benefits like healthcare, bonuses, 401k contributions, investment matches, etc. which add up to quite a bit extra
  2. Those jobs often coincide with 40 hour work weeks where you go home after 5:00pm on weekdays
  3. There is no risk that the government will completely ban out your industry
  4. Tax compliance is mostly handled for you

In DeFi, there are no extra benefits beyond that number we have proposed. DeFi doesn’t sleep and I foresee being awake at many odd hours as needed. This has already happened to Pangolin and Snowball where critical issues have happened and I’ve personally be up past 4am with @Leo_Pangolin and @hariseldon2 addressing them. Much of this goes unseen and should be taken into consideration.

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I do agree in every bit, from your comment to @hariseldon2 comments. This community should not be looking on going cheap on the developers, the developers is what makes the community great, the apps great, the ecosystem great, and we don’t need to be presenting bits of details why these salaries make sense, I would argue it’s cheap given all the complications, volatilities, effort. This is basically the same level of interpreneurship, high risk, high gains, and should be just like that indeed.

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However Project Manager and Community Manager roles do not require any previous Avalanche DeFi experience. Experienced Avax Defi Core Engineer can accelarate the plans and this salary can be considered in case he/she really commits to speed up milestones, however I do not agree with other two roles. Any PM experinced in SW development can cover the activities mentioned in the description. Community Manager has nothing to do with tech background.

Regarding with NDAs, this is a complete question mark actually for me in crypto space. For example, I assume Emin Gun has created independent Avalabs team because of this. But in this model, proposal is to save 500K USD to deliver the things under NDA, I am wondering how much was the total cost of writing Pangolin Software ?

Maybe you are great guys and you will bring highly added values to the Pangolin. But this is just a wish. There is nothing contractually obliged behind this. Community just sit and have to pray for your success. In case team fails at the end , all will get their cash and go for next AVAX Defi projects. Now I start to have doubts about the success of these kind of projects.

I am just thinking loudly here for the success of the project. as it is a sensetive topic, once again my comments are not related with the individuals here, just challenging the proposed model.

However Project Manager and Community Manager roles do not require any previous Avalanche DeFi experience

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Both Project Manager and Community Manager need to be in tune with dozens of people and projects within Avalanche and outside of Avalanche. Facilitating partnerships and integrations is key to success in this space. I have personally spoken with lead developers and core team members of the major projects on Avalanche (Penguin, Yield Yak, Markr.io, Elk Finance, etc.) and keep in touch on almost a daily. This type of relationship building and networking is invaluable. Imagine hiring a Project Manager from Google who didn’t know who Emin Gun Sirer or Kevin Sekniqi is or what they do. Or a hiring a Community Manager from Robinhood who didn’t know the difference between Penguin Finance and Elk Finance. That would be an uphill battle for them to get a proper read of the landscape and be effective in their roles.

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Furthermore, trust and reputation are very important in this ecosystem. Both Justin and myself have established ourselves as credible figures in Avalanche. Reaching out to people and other projects to align them towards our vision for Pangolin is much more streamlined and effective for us than if someone were to try similar outreach without an established reputation.

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“The three most harmful addictions are heroin, carbohydrates, and a monthly salary.” ― Nassim Nicholas Taleb

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What about changing the amount of PNG for the next week based on PNG price? Like if it’s $2000 USD of PNG a week, then use 2000/PNG Price to determine the amount. Would this be easier to program?

I do think a set PNG salary will become problematic. This concern has now been raised several times. Let’s say PNG 3x’s in price. Is it appropriate that the core team members are each paid 420k a year? Let’s also keep in mind that Hari and Leo are both core team members on at least one other DeFi project. So it could be argued that this 420k a year salary is for a part-time commitment.

Sorry mate, your comment was hitten as “spam”.I had to manually allow it, and your criticism is not censored. Give me 2 minutes i will explain the MOD + Contributors.

Before I can do that, I come from Europe, so I would like to explain something, normaly you must know that when you live in Euro and familiar with “Euro standards”. The wage differences have what to do with living standards but also with taxes, there is good Dokus who explain the more detailed. But you have right, devs are underpaid here, or will America be overpaid? That is a political discuss, I think not ours.

Mod part:
We do not consider the monthly payment of a mods on a month, but at least 3 months, as we have been working as a mods for 3 months. So the 1000 PNG is only a “one time payment”. It means 333,33333 PNG for each month, for 3 months. Lets use simple mathematic.: lets say PNG price 3,50$. 333,333*3,50 = 1.166,6655$. I do not know where you come from, but in my country that is not even a student wage, even a waiter deserves more than one mod. If you say PNG can go up, yes, but same way it can go down. It is open for both ways. However, I decided to accept this payment once and then no further payment to accept more than as mod, please be sure that this decision will not do anyone else, but I do it ( i can’t speak for every mods, but i think they will share my opinion). It has nothing to do with you, that’s my own decision. By the way Uniswap mods are based on their own cash register, as they are paid up with at least minimum $ 1k every week, so I think it’s very fair what we get as mods, as we have been there since the beginning. Also in the most difficult days of Pangolin, I think you were not here yet, since they would know us otherwise.
After 3 months we will pay other multi language mods, i think you can deal with that, because its absolutly fair.

Part as contributors
I think i must nothing say about Connor, Connor is a diamand for us and we are happy that he is inside the core team. If you do not know him, please start a research. I will talk about Xavier, xavier isn’t only a mod, he is a important person for Pangolin, he is also a part of the committeee. If you know, it is not an easy task in the committee because we have a giant responsibility. In addition, we go to the risk of real predatory trials or cyber attacks. If you do not know Xavier, so that means he isn’t unknown to avalanche/pangolin community. Lets talk about you now, you are for sure new in Pangolin i noticed that you use the forum for 7 hours, because your account is new, I’m greatly assuming that you just want to discuss a bit. You are welcome. If you start a research, than you will find out in a fast way that a “classic” advisor earns 70.000$ + - commission 30k. Lets talk about me. I am the one who, for example, who give our Project Manager = Hari his role as Dev when he came to Discord, that means that I had to be very early onboard :sunglasses: I am also a member of the committee. The community trust us the tresor, and we have the responsibility now, im talking Long Term. At the same time, we invented a system to take transparency the wishes of the community to bring to a proposal poll and then go the transition to snapshot and later on on-chain. Temporal we also invented the bounties (Thanks to Happy By the Way). In addition, we still bring the classic tasks to a “advisors” on tape. You can do your own research about it, you will agree. I know the salaries in the DAX corporations from Germany: BASF, SAP, Daimler and so on. I also know the salaries of the roles, if we still consider that I have to pay taxes for the 2000 PNG, then I have many costs that you do not calculate , but I care for this important part because I always think of everything, and that’s why I in the core team. We are now the voice of the community, if you do not want the best for us, how can you want the best for yourself? I would even say that when expanding this role will soon be a “Core Team” member with full payment, or not? Let us look in the justic: Socrate says: The fair life good, the unjust bad? That means you have to pay our work fair so you will have a good life, or not?

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The hard part is determining the will of the people. How do we differentiate between long term community members versus say someone like yourself, who only joined the forum 19 hours ago?

The only way is to determine it, is for everyone to vote. Which is what the next step is

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I did not realize that discussion and voting were closed off to recent members. Should I recuse myself?

These salaries will be reviewed in 3 months after we have done our market research.

Appreciate your concern. We can review and adjust in the future if necessary. Currently some of us are taking on a lot of risk for this role (leaving steady employment with full time benefits). No one can predict the price or what the market will do in the future, so for now the current proposed rate seems to make sense given the high risk that the team is taking on.